New and Worried......

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Honey
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:01 am
Location: Nottingham - England

New and Worried......

Post by Honey » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:26 am

Hi all,

We have a 2 year old Golden Retriever called Honey.

She first started fitting at about 6 months old and seizures were about a month apart.

But over time they have gradually got closer together, to a point now were they are 1 week apart at the most!!!

They consist of 5 to 6 fits over 24 hours, and a recovery period of around 2 to 3 days.

Then we get Honey back for 4 or 5 days then wham! another fit and the whole cycle happens over again.

We have tried all medications including epiphen, Carbo, Fitagol, and even some experimental human drugs.....all with little or no effect.

The main reason i am posting is Honey periodically will seem to faint and smash to the floor, then after and couple of seconds get back up for 10 or 15 seconds then smash to the floor again! This continues for 1/2 half hour or so then it seems to pass, has anyone else encountered this????

This is extremely disturbing and damaging to her.

I would like to know your thought's and suggestions...thanks for reading

Dan
Honey - 2 year Old Golden Retriever

Epiphen 300mg a day
Fitergol 15mg a day
Carbamazepine 600mg a day
Gabapentin 600mg a day

Last Seizure Sat 17th Nov 2007

MK's mom
Posts: 1708
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:48 am
Location: Michigan

Post by MK's mom » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:30 pm

HI Dan and welcome.

I have not experienced what you're describing. You say you've tried the different drugs but you didn't indicate if your dog is still on them. If she is still on those drugs, has the vet increased the dosages to try and get her to therapeutic levels?

BTW, you didn't happen to get Honey from a breeder by the name of Yvonne, did you?

Vivian
Nathan
3.5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 7/26/2013
Last seizure 3/24/2014
__________________________________
MK
5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 1/25/06
Last seizure 9/4/2009

Aug 17, 2004- Sept. 22, 2009
May the shamrocks fall softly sweetpea

skrpio
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:34 pm
Location: Auckland , New Zealand

Post by skrpio » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:31 pm

Hi Dan - this seems to be a case for a neurologist and quickly.
I have not heard of those symtoms before. When she seizes is it Grand Mal or a focal ? 5 or 6 over 24hrs is not Status Epilepcitus but it is still way too many. You need to see a vet who knows what to do because she may need a combination of PB and KBr. Also with that many seizures together she may need vallium to stop them. Get onto it quickly.
Jane
In loving memory of my special KiKi Bean
Seizure free forever now
Nov 25th 2002 - Nov 1st 2006
Dogue De Bordeaux

Honey
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:01 am
Location: Nottingham - England

Post by Honey » Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:18 pm

MK's mom wrote:HI Dan and welcome.

BTW, you didn't happen to get Honey from a breeder by the name of Yvonne, did you?

Vivian
No, a lady in Lincoln England called Dorethy.

I have spoken to her also and no other dog from the litter had any problems.

Honey is still on Epiphen, Fitagol, Carbamazapine and gabapentin.

We have had 3 brain scans (all clear) fluid taken from the brain (clear) and regular Blood tests for liver damage and epiphen levels.

But we are now getting to a point were we feel we have tried everything.....very fraustrating as you all know.
Honey - 2 year Old Golden Retriever

Epiphen 300mg a day
Fitergol 15mg a day
Carbamazepine 600mg a day
Gabapentin 600mg a day

Last Seizure Sat 17th Nov 2007

skrpio
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:34 pm
Location: Auckland , New Zealand

Post by skrpio » Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:12 pm

Have you ruled out the possibilities that the drugs other than PB may be causing the problems. Some cases dogs cannot handle PB either and need to be on just KBr.
Jane
In loving memory of my special KiKi Bean
Seizure free forever now
Nov 25th 2002 - Nov 1st 2006
Dogue De Bordeaux

MK's mom
Posts: 1708
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:48 am
Location: Michigan

Post by MK's mom » Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:27 pm

There are two drugs mentioned that I am unfamiliar with. It might be worth the try to ask your vet to get Honey on potassium bromide (KBr). That drug along with the epiphen (phenabarbitol, Pb) helps a lot of the dogs tremendously. My boy is on both of those medications.

You didn't mention the dosages, is that something you can put in your signature line so the other posters know how much Honey is getting? It might be a matter of finding the right dosage for her to help get her under better control.

Vivian
Nathan
3.5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 7/26/2013
Last seizure 3/24/2014
__________________________________
MK
5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 1/25/06
Last seizure 9/4/2009

Aug 17, 2004- Sept. 22, 2009
May the shamrocks fall softly sweetpea

Dylans Dad
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:12 am
Location: SE Iowa
Contact:

Post by Dylans Dad » Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:42 pm

no wonder you are worried, that would scare the bejeezes out of me to.
can`t help you much, not familiar with the drugs you are using.
Dylan is on both Pb and kbr.
I think I would try and find a neo spicalist/university.
Wags & Slurps
Debby & Dylan
6 yr old Border collie
1st aug 7 2006
last 7-18-08
375 MG kbr twice a day
1 47.5 pb twice a day

High_Voltage_Head
Posts: 193
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:00 pm
Location: Minnesota

Post by High_Voltage_Head » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:32 am

Hi Dan, not that i'm an expert but this is one of the worst cases i've heard of. Time for drastic measures, but what sort?

I am not a big believer in alternative medicine, in fact i'm very skeptical, but i have heard a few stories that make me think it actually works in some cases. The problem is there are a zillion different methods and it's hard to know which ones might help. I'd suggest finding out if there's a respected alternative practitioner in your area.

Diet is another area worth pursuing. Again the problem is you'll get 18 different opinions as to what type of diet should be used. Quite a few people mention raw diets and/or no grains.

Have you tried Keppra? Not sure it's available over there but it has a reputation for often (not always) working when no other drug does.

Finally....here's the most radical idea, short of euthanasia. This would be the last thing i would try before giving up, because it's dangerous! I recently heard of a case similar to yours where the dog was on about 4 different drugs and they weren't working, the seizures kept getting worse. The vet advised stopping all drugs immediately, cold turkey. The first 3 days were ok and then the dog apparently had "a rough couple weeks" (i assume that means lots of seizures). Then they restarted one of the drugs (Keppra) at a low dose and the dog has been doing "awesome" the last i heard.

I've actually considered trying that method on my dog because the drugs have never done him much good. One reason i think there may be some worth to the idea is that the only thing that has ever helped my dog's seizures was when i stopped giving him KBr. They aren't a whole lot better, but somewhat better, and I don't know for sure that it was stopping the KBr that helped, but i believe it was because nothing else changed that i'm aware of.
Me: Kurt
Dog: Jackson the 6 y.o. Standard Poodle 55lbs
died March '08

MK's mom
Posts: 1708
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:48 am
Location: Michigan

Post by MK's mom » Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:39 am

Kurt,

What is the idea behind stopping the drugs cold turkey for awhile before starting the Keppra? Is it to cleanse the body of the other drugs? I'd be afraid of that, too. A dog could go into status quickly, that's such a big risk to take. I guess if a dog has become refractory then what is there to lose by trying it?

Vivian
Nathan
3.5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 7/26/2013
Last seizure 3/24/2014
__________________________________
MK
5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 1/25/06
Last seizure 9/4/2009

Aug 17, 2004- Sept. 22, 2009
May the shamrocks fall softly sweetpea

Honey
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:01 am
Location: Nottingham - England

Post by Honey » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:21 pm

We have tried Keppra but it tended to have a side effect of Honey losing her rear leg use for upto 12 hours.

If Honey starts to pace in recovery we give Valium 5mg x 3, but this only tends to stop her pacing for 20 - 30 minutes then she is back to pacing and bumping into household objects.

What is this liquid Valium you all talk about, does it last longer?

Honey is still recovering but has not had a seizure since Saturday.

i think i will ask the Vet for potassium bromide to give a try.

p.s. Because the combination of drugs is so high, i haven't ruled out the fact that some may be causing more harm than good, but we have tried so many diffrent combinations i have thought about stopping all medication for a short while and starting back on say one or two.
Honey - 2 year Old Golden Retriever

Epiphen 300mg a day
Fitergol 15mg a day
Carbamazepine 600mg a day
Gabapentin 600mg a day

Last Seizure Sat 17th Nov 2007

High_Voltage_Head
Posts: 193
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:00 pm
Location: Minnesota

Post by High_Voltage_Head » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:14 pm

Vivian, i think the idea was that the dog was in such bad condition, having so many seizures, that it was time to euthanize. There wasn't time to slowly withdraw the drugs. She did say that the one condition where they would have used a drug during the withdrawal was if the dog went into status....other than that they would use no drugs for 2 weeks. Her vet told her there was at least one study that showed seizures getting worse when large quantities of drugs were being used....i'm a little vague on details. I really don't know if the cold turkey aspect makes the process work better for some reason than if you slowly weaned the dog off drugs. I can possibly get more info if anyone is interested.

Dan, i would definitely try KBr if you haven't yet.

Liquid Valium is used rectally. It kicks in very fast but doesn't last as long as pills. It is mainly used to avoid status epilepticus (continuous seizures), but i think lots of people also use it to control clusters if the seizures are spaced close together.
Me: Kurt
Dog: Jackson the 6 y.o. Standard Poodle 55lbs
died March '08

skrpio
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:34 pm
Location: Auckland , New Zealand

Post by skrpio » Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:54 pm

Dan - with all of those drugs she is on not even counting vallium no wonder she is having problems. This seems to be an overdose. If she keeps on taking all of those she will rattle.
Talk to your vet and see if she can go off them (with monitoring) and start from the beginning again. All of those drugs cannot be good for her.
Jane
In loving memory of my special KiKi Bean
Seizure free forever now
Nov 25th 2002 - Nov 1st 2006
Dogue De Bordeaux

HaleyDebJ
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:21 pm
Location: Central Pa.

Post by HaleyDebJ » Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:33 pm

Hi. Actually, you are describing something my golden does once in awhile during her seizures. She starts out blinking her eyes and head bobbing. Then after a few minutes she starts to lose control of her front legs and she falls flat on her face. Now, at this point, her muscles are all contracting if you feel them, but just to look at her you would not guess this. We make her lay down and we sit on the floor with her till she is done with this seizure. But she really falls fast and hard, just like someone kicked her front legs out from under her. That is why we make her lay down. Then afterwards, she will wander around the house, but I think this is an after effect of some seizures, the "lost" disoriented part of it.Haley gets this type about once every 4 or 5 times, other times it is the feet paddling, snapping the air kind.
I would try the Potassium Bromide also. Haley is on it too, and seems to have lessen the syptoms the last few months of all the seizures. So we are going in the right direction.
I give her 2 drops of some herbal stuff called Rescue Remedy. You can find it at health stores over here. It is to help them to relax sorta like the valium does. It has helped Haley, I think, but have not tried valium yet.
Good luck and let us know how you are doing.
Haley-Golden Retriever
1 and 1/2 years old
Rescue-but knew about the seizures
First withus-Nov. 2006
Last-Nov. 6 2007

Honey
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:01 am
Location: Nottingham - England

Post by Honey » Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:18 pm

HaleyDebJ wrote:Hi. Actually, you are describing something my golden does once in awhile during her seizures. She starts out blinking her eyes and head bobbing. Then after a few minutes she starts to lose control of her front legs and she falls flat on her face. Now, at this point, her muscles are all contracting if you feel them, but just to look at her you would not guess this. We make her lay down and we sit on the floor with her till she is done with this seizure. But she really falls fast and hard, just like someone kicked her front legs out from under her. That is why we make her lay down. Then afterwards, she will wander around the house, but I think this is an after effect of some seizures, the "lost" disoriented part of it.Haley gets this type about once every 4 or 5 times, other times it is the feet paddling, snapping the air kind.
I would try the Potassium Bromide also. Haley is on it too, and seems to have lessen the syptoms the last few months of all the seizures. So we are going in the right direction.
I give her 2 drops of some herbal stuff called Rescue Remedy. You can find it at health stores over here. It is to help them to relax sorta like the valium does. It has helped Haley, I think, but have not tried valium yet.
Good luck and let us know how you are doing.
HaleyDebJ,

That's exactly right!!!! I was beginning to wonder if we were the only one's with this.

We also make her lay down and hold her head up. This blinking, nodding and collaspsing last around 20 mins then passes. Does your Golden keep trying to get up, and the more you try to restrain her the more anxious she seems to get!

Will deffo get some PB.

Thanks alot HaleyDebJ, this is somewhat reassuring.

Dan
Honey - 2 year Old Golden Retriever

Epiphen 300mg a day
Fitergol 15mg a day
Carbamazepine 600mg a day
Gabapentin 600mg a day

Last Seizure Sat 17th Nov 2007

HaleyDebJ
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:21 pm
Location: Central Pa.

Post by HaleyDebJ » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:27 am

Hi. Yes, Haley does try to get up more. But we just make her lay down and she is getting used to that. We just talk to her quietly while she is having them and she seems to knowwe are there.
Good luck with the medicine change, hope womething works for you and keep us up to date.
Haley-Golden Retriever
1 and 1/2 years old
Rescue-but knew about the seizures
First withus-Nov. 2006
Last-Nov. 6 2007

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