Post Ictal problems

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richmauer
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:21 am
Location: Morristown, NJ

Post Ictal problems

Post by richmauer » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:14 am

Wonderful to be part of such a great resource!

I have a 7 y/o terrier mix female, Peanut (weight 25lbs). She has had epilepsy for about 5 years. She has seizures approximately every 6-8 weeks for a 36 hour period. In that time, she may have 5-10 seizures. We currently give her 75mg pheno AM and 90mg pheno PM along with 320 Pot Bromide. We took her to Univ. of Penn vet clinic this summer, as well as our regular vet. The seizures are not really so bad to deal with, but her post ictal is pretty bad. She has us awake for 2 nights. She paces, she cries, she barks, she walks into walls, etc. The U of P vet gave us Prednisone to "shrink to brain swelling" and ACE to "put her to sleep". Well, it didn't work at all. We have tried rectal valium as well as oral valium (20mgs every 3 hrs. max 3 doses). I can't believe that much medication doesn't knock her out!

Any suggestions or have you been through this same thing and had any success?

MK's mom
Posts: 1708
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:48 am
Location: Michigan

Post by MK's mom » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:07 am

HI and welcome.

I was going to suggest valium right after a seizure, but you've tried that and it doesn't work. Have you tried clorazapate? THat breaks seizures for my boy better than valium does, don't know if it would help the post ictal, but you could try. My neurologist said it won't hurt the dog either.

Vivian
Nathan
3.5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 7/26/2013
Last seizure 3/24/2014
__________________________________
MK
5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 1/25/06
Last seizure 9/4/2009

Aug 17, 2004- Sept. 22, 2009
May the shamrocks fall softly sweetpea

High_Voltage_Head
Posts: 193
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:00 pm
Location: Minnesota

Post by High_Voltage_Head » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:42 am

Yeah, that sounds bad, and i don't have any ideas because my dog's post-ictal is nowhere near that bad, or at least nowhere near that long.

And i see your dog is on lots of phenobarb, even more than my dog when you take weight into account. I hope you're having frequent blood tests to check his liver.
Me: Kurt
Dog: Jackson the 6 y.o. Standard Poodle 55lbs
died March '08

richmauer
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:21 am
Location: Morristown, NJ

Post by richmauer » Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:36 pm

Thanks for your concern. I do check her liver function about 4-6 times/year and incredibly it's usually on the low side. After reading some posts, I realize the seizure part with Peanut is not too frequent or numerous, but the post-ictal is a nightmare.
Precious Peanut in doggie heaven 6/25/10 - 10 years old
English Cocker female 10 y/o "Sundae"
Shiatzu Male 10 y/o "Casey"

Bethelonia
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Virginia

Post by Bethelonia » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:19 pm

My JRT TJ (RIP) was about 15 lbs and she was on 64 mg pb in the morning, 32 mg mid-day and 64 again at night, plus kbr mid-day.

To break a cluster I had to give her 10mg oral valium every 1-2 hrs for about 12 hrs, sometimes longer. I have read that valium only works for 1 to 1 1/2 hrs, then you have to re-dose. This was very hard on TJ, made her extremely dopey and harder for her to get around, which for TJ was pretty bad due to her other problems, but I did it anyway to break the clusters.

Her most recent post-ictal was lasting about two to three days and involved whimpering a lot and confusion, plus loss of housebreaking, probably due to confusion. I would take her outside, she seemed unsure what we were doing out there, eventually I would take her back in and she would have to go so she would go in the house. This would usually rectify within about two days.

Good luck with Peanut, I hope you can find some solution to the post-ictal problems.

Beth
TJ: JRT born on 9-11-01. Genetic neuro disorders including seizures, first one at 5 mo., after that many clusters, may she Rest In Peace, PTS on 12/31/07.
KC: 8 mo. golden lab/terrier who is lost without her best buddy.

richmauer
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:21 am
Location: Morristown, NJ

Post by richmauer » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:51 pm

Beth
Sorry to hear about your loss. I know it's very difficult.
Were you up all night with TJ? Did you only give him the valium while seizuring or in post-ictal. Peanut does not seem to be effected by the valium at all, either to stop the seizures or the post ictal.
Precious Peanut in doggie heaven 6/25/10 - 10 years old
English Cocker female 10 y/o "Sundae"
Shiatzu Male 10 y/o "Casey"

Bethelonia
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Virginia

Post by Bethelonia » Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:10 pm

The last cluster TJ had (beginning of Dec.) she had her first seizure about 5 a.m. on a Friday and had 8 by 10 am Saturday. I had run out of valium, partly because I had almost decided to stop using it due to the extreme grogginess and inability to walk with TJ, but by Saturday morning I called my vet, he called in a rx and I went and got it, started giving her 10 mg pills Sat am and gave them every hour or two, she did not have another seizure until Monday evening, then just one and it was mild. I gave the valium until I ran out of the ten pills, which is all I would ever get. Once I started giving her the valium she did not seize again, like I said, until Monday evening.

I found in the past that if I gave it every three hours she would seize again. If I gave it every one to two hours, she would stop seizing.

TJ had so many clusters of seizures during her six years that they no longer kept me up at night. I would wake up during a seizure, because she always slept in my room, I would wait until she was totally over it and then give the valium, and then go back to sleep. Valium or not, she would sleep deeply between seizures.

The post-ictal did not keep me up either although this last time when she was whimpering all the time, that kept waking me up. I would think she needed to go out, I would take her out, it would turn out that's not what she wanted. She may have wanted food but I did not usually allow her to scarf down a whole bowl of dogfood, which she would be inclined to do after a seizure, because she was gaining a little weight and the last thing TJ needed was to be fat since she had so much trouble carrying herself around anyway. So I don't know why she was whimpering, but that did keep me up somewhat.

I can see, with your dog's post-ictal behavior, how that might keep you up at night. Maybe you can arrange for a safe room for her to be after a seizure? I could not put TJ in a crate because the one time I did she got her tooth caught in a wire from the cage during a seizure. For a dog who is pacing and agitated a safe room with a bed and some water might be a good place to recover.

Beth
TJ: JRT born on 9-11-01. Genetic neuro disorders including seizures, first one at 5 mo., after that many clusters, may she Rest In Peace, PTS on 12/31/07.
KC: 8 mo. golden lab/terrier who is lost without her best buddy.

richmauer
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:21 am
Location: Morristown, NJ

Post by richmauer » Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:08 pm

We certainly have considered putting her in the basement, perhaps in a cage, but I think she would cry and bark all night. She has never been in a cage except at the pound where we adopted her. Once every 6-8 weeks is not too bad, but I'd love to fix the post ictal or make it more tolerable. It's tough not sleeping for 2 nights in a row.
Precious Peanut in doggie heaven 6/25/10 - 10 years old
English Cocker female 10 y/o "Sundae"
Shiatzu Male 10 y/o "Casey"

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Post by DELETED » Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:30 pm

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skrpio
Posts: 1143
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Location: Auckland , New Zealand

Post by skrpio » Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:16 pm

Just scanned the net and found a site which may help. I do not often suggest homeopathic medicines for seizure use but it may help with the post ictal problems as it says it can be used in conjunction with other AEDs and in some cases the AEDs can be reduced. As AED as used for both humans and animals there is no problem there.

www.nativeremedies.com/epi-still

The other thing you could try is the ice pack treatment - some have reported that this not only reduces the seizure time but also reduces the post ictal period as well. See Epi-Guaridian Angels site ( through LINKS)
Jane
In loving memory of my special KiKi Bean
Seizure free forever now
Nov 25th 2002 - Nov 1st 2006
Dogue De Bordeaux

richmauer
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:21 am
Location: Morristown, NJ

Post by richmauer » Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:24 pm

Jane
Thanks so much. Those are 2 great ideas to try. Ice packs and EpiStill. Also I found an article about vanilla (Hagen Daz) ice cream which may help. It said 2 teaspoons may also lessen the seizures because of the sugar levels. What great ideas. Why didn't my vet suggest any of these? I will forward them to my vets.
Can't wait to try these ideas. I will post the results.
Richard
Precious Peanut in doggie heaven 6/25/10 - 10 years old
English Cocker female 10 y/o "Sundae"
Shiatzu Male 10 y/o "Casey"

skrpio
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Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:34 pm
Location: Auckland , New Zealand

Post by skrpio » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:06 am

Richard - your vets will pooh pooh the ideas and say they have no connections with anything to do with reducing the seizures or post ictal period.
As we all discovered here, there are many things out there which do indeed either trigger or suspend seizures.
With regard to the seizures - have you kept a diary of these as this can help to determine if there is a pattern especially when flea tick and heartworm treatments are given. Also annual vaccinations.
Once again vets will say that none of these lead to seizures but they do.
I did not crate KiKi post ictal but I did confine her to the laundry where she had room to pace but not to injure herself. I found the use of a baby monitor really helpful as I could go to bed and not have to try and stay awake listening for her incase she got into difficulties.
Jane
In loving memory of my special KiKi Bean
Seizure free forever now
Nov 25th 2002 - Nov 1st 2006
Dogue De Bordeaux

richmauer
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:21 am
Location: Morristown, NJ

Post by richmauer » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:51 am

Yes we do keep a diary. The seizures are not related to flea meds. We checked that also. The only thing we found to be related is the full moon!
Sounds crazy. We have tried to put up a baby gate in a room, but she seems to have super strength and has always busted through. We are atleast thankful that her seizures are not that often, say 6-8 times per year. We will try the ice packs, ice cream and the herbal remedy. Can't hurt.
Richard
Precious Peanut in doggie heaven 6/25/10 - 10 years old
English Cocker female 10 y/o "Sundae"
Shiatzu Male 10 y/o "Casey"

skrpio
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:34 pm
Location: Auckland , New Zealand

Post by skrpio » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:54 pm

Not as crazy as you think. There have been several dogs on this site that seem to have seizures with the full moon (mine included for a while). I think it affects us and them more than we think. Go to a puppy class on a full moon and the little mites are mental - more than normal that is.
I have heard it is due to the fact that we/them are made up of mostly water and the full moon has the same effect as it does on the tides. Unfortunately unless the moon leaves orbit there is nothing we can do - and if it does leave orbit we will have alot more things to worry about.
And yes they seem to have super strength wil post ictal and will bust through anything. KiKi broke down a barrier and ran away, fell over the sea wall and into the incoming tide in the middle of the night - and it was a full moon. After that I never let her outside without a lead on.
Jane
In loving memory of my special KiKi Bean
Seizure free forever now
Nov 25th 2002 - Nov 1st 2006
Dogue De Bordeaux

Dylans Dad
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Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:12 am
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Contact:

Post by Dylans Dad » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:57 am

my vet pooh poohed the icecream and ice packs too
but pooh pooh on him cuz I know they help dylan
Wags & Slurps
Debby & Dylan
6 yr old Border collie
1st aug 7 2006
last 7-18-08
375 MG kbr twice a day
1 47.5 pb twice a day

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