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claires friend
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:49 pm
Location: California

Post by claires friend » Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:09 am

I am finding this very interesting that all our Vet's are testing bloods levels differently. I have been using Idex for Morgan because they are underwritting the costs, which is a life saver for me. However, her last test came back so messed up I wanted to use Jean Dodds. We ended up having to redraw blood for her because she wanted blood pulled 4-6 hours post meds. I never had to do that with Idex. No one has said anything about feeding!!
Susan Marie
Morgan -Foster Golden, now ours FOREVER !!
First seizure Aug 16, 2006 @9 months old ,very low thyroid
She has been with me since the end of July 07
150mg PB BID
.5 soloxine BID
400 Kbr BID

skrpio
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:34 pm
Location: Auckland , New Zealand

Post by skrpio » Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:06 am

I would follow Jean Dodds methods of testing. She has been doing this research for years and knows what she is talking about. Most of the vets we see were not even born when she started practising. The vet I took KiKi to was very anti Jean Dodds and said to her everything caused seizures and I had one hell of a job to get him to test for thyroid levels. As a comparison the one he did through "normal" testing in NZ came back at 11 which according to him was in the grey area and thus idiopathic epilepsy. The test from Jean Dodds came back at 2 which was an extremely low thyroid and may have been the cause of her seizures.
Jane
In loving memory of my special KiKi Bean
Seizure free forever now
Nov 25th 2002 - Nov 1st 2006
Dogue De Bordeaux

MTM
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:12 am
Location: Midwest, USA

Post by MTM » Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:53 pm

I found out about not eating on Friday morning- they will be doing the pre and post bile acid test on him again as well as test his Phb level. I suppose to see if there has been any change since being on the meds. It is going to suck, though. He is going to be a hungry little man. He will have his meds in the morning with peanut butter, though... I wonder if that will do anything. I suppose I should call and ask tomorrow. I hate that he has to have blood drawn- has anyone here had luck with the urine bile acid test? I will have to talk to my vets about that if they are going to do this every 6 months. Either way they will take blood from him to test his levels on Friday... I guess I would rather him go through a needle poke than a seizure. Hope everyone is doing well!
~Marie
Epi:
Murfy -forever free but forever missed <3
Toby -74 lbs, 8.5 yrs old, black lab mix
Meds:
258 mg Phb, .9 mg Thyrosyn and 300 mg Zonisamide BID. Also 575 mg NaBr daily.

Lori Peterson
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:58 am

Seizure following bath / brushout

Post by Lori Peterson » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:18 pm

Boy, am I grateful you all are here! Yesterday, my 6-year-old Border Collie, Maggie, had a seizure. She had not had a seizure before, she's never had any injuries, and she's never had adverse reactions to anything (food, medications, etc.). She's a lovable, energetic, smart little dog. She was a rescue dog, but we've had her since she was 12 weeks old. We don't know if her littermates or parents have had seizures. It was completely out of the blue and very painful to watch.

At 11:00 yesterday morning, I took her to a "Bark 'n Bubbles" bath place. She seemed fine with it - we had gone once before in December. She didn't snap or try to run away or tremble or whine while I bathed her. She previously didn't like the dryer, so I didn't even attempt to use it this time. I dried her off, we came home, and I set out towels for her to lie on and she was content all afternoon. Around 4:00 I started brushing her out. She usually loves that, and she sat still and chewed a rawhide while I brushed her - about 20 minutes in all. When I was done, I got out the vacuum cleaner and started cleaning up the hair. I noticed she was cowering in the corner - usually she snaps at the vacuum and then runs away - so I stopped and went over to her. She was trembling, drooling, and licking her lips. It was so strange, and my daughter and I felt right away that something was wrong, so we called the vet. They said to watch her and call back in the morning if she didn't seem better. Five minutes later, she was still trembling but she wasn't able to hold a sitting position. She fell over and couldn't right herself, and it looked like she had no control of her hindquarters. She wasn't vomiting or peeing or pooping, just drooling and licking her lips. She started trying to drag herself across the floor. I called the vet again and asked if they could please take her. They said they couldn't fit her in (they were closing in a half-hour), so I hung up and just as I was trying to decide if she should go to an emergency vet, she started flailing and flipping uncontrollably. She sometimes does the "Curly shuffle" on the floor, like if she's itchy. It was like that, except she didn't pivot from a central spot. She flip-flopped on her back, head to foot, foot to head. It lasted for about 15 or 20 seconds, long enough for me to call the vet again and scream that she needed to come in NOW! When it stopped, she hopped up and walked over to her water dish, like nothing had happened. She was very shaky, though, and her eyes looked dazed and dark black (they're usually brown) - I guess the pupils were dilated. Anyway, we tucked her in her travel crate and hoofed off to the vet. They took her temperature and did bloodwork. Her liver function was normal. Her temperature was normal. Everything was normal. The shaking continued for another half-hour, but by the time we left the vet's office it had stopped completely. She was fine the rest of the evening and through the night, and she has been fine all day today. She hasn't been out of my sight.

I spent today reading the Canine Epilepsy Basics article on this site, as well as many of the posts in the forum. A few really caught my attention, especially the ones that discuss triggers and the occurrence of seizures in Border Collies. In particular I was wondering about the relationship between bathing and seizures. I contacted the bath place and the manufacturer of the products we used, and there were no reports of seizure associated with them (Cain & Able and Top Performance). Honestly, I don't think there's a connection there. Maggie always seems resigned to her baths - "I'll do it but I won't like it" - but maybe she's been much more unhappy about them than I ever imagined.

I'd be interested to know if anyone has heard of similar incidents. I wonder if it might be a good idea to get a mild sedative from the vet that I could give Maggie next time I bathe her. Unfortunately, she likes to roll in lots of bad things, so she needs to be bathed pretty regularly. I probably won't take her back to the bath place - that experience might be too traumatic. It's more for my convenience, since someone else cleans up!

In the meantime, we are going to keep track of her symptoms and signals. I've contacted the rescue organization to see if they know of any history of seizures in her litter. I don't know what else to do except resume business as usual, watch and wait and hope she doesn't have more seizures. But if she does, we'll deal with it.

Wow - a long post. I welcome any feedback you might have for me. Thanks for reading/listening!!! I was very distressed yesterday but feel much more hopeful now.
Lori - owner of Maggie (7-year-old border collie)
First (hopefully only) seizure: 3/5/08

Merlinsmom
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:41 am

Post by Merlinsmom » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:57 pm

Hi, Lori,

The seizure probably had nothing to do with the bath although stress can cause seizures in a dog prone to them. It's normal to try to figure out what triggered a seizure but most of the time its a shot in the dark- no way of knowing. If it happens again after a bath- then you'd have reason to look for some specific thing there.

My Jack had his first seizure at 2 and then went 5 months without a second. Merlin had his second within 24 hrs of his first. Next time you won't be (quite) so freaked out, but hopefully that will be a long time from now, or never.

Bobbie
Bobbie
Merlin, 10 yr old Pembroke Welsh corgi, seizures since September 07
Jack, 3 year old Pembroke Welsh corgi, seizures since Dec. 06

MTM
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:12 am
Location: Midwest, USA

Post by MTM » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:45 pm

Hello Lori-

The first seizures always seem to come out of nowhere! They are frightening for sure. I think one of the most frustrating things about them is trying to figure out why they are happening- there seems to be very few concrete answers. I also have trouble dealing with the "sit back and wait" approach- basically wait and see what happens next. Although I know in many cases this is all you can do, it is very difficult. Good luck and do as much research as you possibly can. The more you know, the better off you are. I hope your pup has a peaceful night.
~Marie
Epi:
Murfy -forever free but forever missed <3
Toby -74 lbs, 8.5 yrs old, black lab mix
Meds:
258 mg Phb, .9 mg Thyrosyn and 300 mg Zonisamide BID. Also 575 mg NaBr daily.

MTM
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:12 am
Location: Midwest, USA

Post by MTM » Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:40 pm

Toby has his blood drawn today but they did not do the pre and post bile test again. So now I am really confused as to why he couldn't eat- it was pretty tough for him, too. He was hungry this morning. I was not able to leave work so my husband took him and didn't ask very many questions. I told him to ask if we could/should give Toby an extra dose of Phb if he is acting pre-ictal and I guess the vet said no- something about not wanting him to be on too much in case it doesn't work? I really wish I could have gone myself. It does not make sense to me though- he is not on a very high dose and he is not a small dog. So we do nothing and he has a seizure and then they up his daily dose? I am not a vet by any means so maybe that is legit... I also don't know if they will be doing the blood analysis locally or if it will be sent out so no answers on where he is at as of yet.

Anyway, I am sensing a little resistance from the vet everytime I talk to him on the phone. Toby's front left leg is swollen and has been since he was in the hospital. It has gone down considerably- they put him on 1500 mg of cephalexin (sp?) for 14 days but it is still a little puffy (firm though, not "pitting"). When my husband asked about it today, they told him they didn't know and just to watch it. It frustrates me- is the leg in some way related to the seizures? His heart tests all came back good- so I wouldn't think it is related to heart failure but what about autoimmune of some sort?

Sorry for the long post- just trying to work through some things in my head I guess. Hope all is well with everyone!
~Marie
Epi:
Murfy -forever free but forever missed <3
Toby -74 lbs, 8.5 yrs old, black lab mix
Meds:
258 mg Phb, .9 mg Thyrosyn and 300 mg Zonisamide BID. Also 575 mg NaBr daily.

claires friend
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:49 pm
Location: California

Post by claires friend » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:23 am

Lori, is Maggie on any kind of Heartworm meds?
Susan Marie
Morgan -Foster Golden, now ours FOREVER !!
First seizure Aug 16, 2006 @9 months old ,very low thyroid
She has been with me since the end of July 07
150mg PB BID
.5 soloxine BID
400 Kbr BID

MTM
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:12 am
Location: Midwest, USA

Post by MTM » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:51 am

I received the "Through a Dog's Ear" CD yesterday and it is pretty nice! Murfy fell asleep within a few minutes (but he is a sleeper- so it might not have been the music ;) ) and Toby sat there and kept cocking his head side to side at the speaker. He eventually laid down and just kind of listened to it... or something. It is hard to say exactly what they thought of course, but I actually found it pretty soothing. I think it would be great to fall asleep to at night- I will have to try it. The book about how and why they decided on the music used was shipped seperately but it is supposed to be delivered on the 10th. Should be an interesting read!
~Marie
Epi:
Murfy -forever free but forever missed <3
Toby -74 lbs, 8.5 yrs old, black lab mix
Meds:
258 mg Phb, .9 mg Thyrosyn and 300 mg Zonisamide BID. Also 575 mg NaBr daily.

skrpio
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:34 pm
Location: Auckland , New Zealand

Post by skrpio » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:00 am

marie - if your vet is acting like that get another vet. Especially if your dog has been injured while at the vets. It is quite common for a vet to prescribe additional PB if you can detect when your dog is going to seize and if your vet has a problem with this and it sounds like he does by his feeble excuse the definately go to a different vet.
Jane
In loving memory of my special KiKi Bean
Seizure free forever now
Nov 25th 2002 - Nov 1st 2006
Dogue De Bordeaux

bajaluna
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:55 pm
Location: Kansas

Post by bajaluna » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:53 am

shamus sometimes lets me know a day before he is going to seize,he wants to be always in my lap,farts alot and growls at people and sleeps all day,I usually give him extra PB and a dose of valium before bed.
but sometimes he doesnt feel it and is normal untill 30 seconds before
when he jumps his 100lb ars on top of me,then theres nothing I can do

MTM
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:12 am
Location: Midwest, USA

Post by MTM » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:17 pm

Thanks Jane- I have been seriously considering finding a new vet or at least insisting switching Toby's case to the other vet at the clinic. The one handling Toby is fairly new and just happened to be there when Toby was brought in so he got the case. The other vet has been great and is the primary doctor for Murfy. I actually went through him to get Toby on the NaBr because Toby's vet was refusing to put him on it. Needless to say, Toby's vet is not very happy about it :) I just want what is best for my dogs... when they call me with his test results I am going to ask about the extra Phb dose myself and see if he can give me a decent explanation.
~Marie
Epi:
Murfy -forever free but forever missed <3
Toby -74 lbs, 8.5 yrs old, black lab mix
Meds:
258 mg Phb, .9 mg Thyrosyn and 300 mg Zonisamide BID. Also 575 mg NaBr daily.

skrpio
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:34 pm
Location: Auckland , New Zealand

Post by skrpio » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:44 pm

Who cares if he doesn't like it - Toby is the prime concern not his inflated ego. When a vet (or anyone for that matter) will not give an explanation for their actions change is needed. Explain to the next vet your concerns over what the previous one was like and say you need to know for your own peace of mind and you are not trying to steal trade secrets - which is what you are made to feel like I found.
I was told by KiKis vet that I was dangerous because I was learning things off the net and he had training for XX number of years. The thing was that I knew more about epilepsy than he did from reading up on the net about it and learning from experiences of members here. When he did not answer my questions and ridiculed Dr Jean Dodds we had a bit of a heated argument. I changed to another vet in the group. He must have mentioned to the new vet that I was a &%#*^ but I layed down the rules and the new vet and I got along well. I take Brock to him and we established very early on if he was not sure of something I would sooner be sent to a specialist.
Jane
In loving memory of my special KiKi Bean
Seizure free forever now
Nov 25th 2002 - Nov 1st 2006
Dogue De Bordeaux

MK's mom
Posts: 1708
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:48 am
Location: Michigan

Post by MK's mom » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:27 pm

Lots of vets hate when their clients know a little something!!! We're a challenge you know! LOL My primary vet is wonderful, he listens to what I say and never criticizes my thoughts on things. The owner of the vet practice is another story. He told me 'you show dog people' get ideas about things that aren't always correct. WHat I think that translates into is; you 'showdog' people know more than I want you to and it keeps me from making lots of $ off of your backs because I can't just tell you any old thing and expect you to take it as gospel! It's very hard to tell sometimes if the vet has our dog's best interests at heart or if they're trying to generate revenue. One thing I DO know is if a vet poopoos everything a client says and refuses to listen to any new idea, then they need to be replaced.

Vivian
Nathan
3.5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 7/26/2013
Last seizure 3/24/2014
__________________________________
MK
5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 1/25/06
Last seizure 9/4/2009

Aug 17, 2004- Sept. 22, 2009
May the shamrocks fall softly sweetpea

MTM
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:12 am
Location: Midwest, USA

Post by MTM » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:17 pm

I got home from work a little bit ago and there was a message from Toby's vet (why they don't call my cell # I will never understand- I have given it to them numerous times). Anyway, Toby's test results from Friday are in and I am supposed to call the vet in the morning to discuss them. I hope he has good things to tell me and I hope he does not throw a fit when I bring up the extra dose of pheno again. I will let you all know how it goes... ;)

PS: A few weeks ago I too got the "you can't believe everything you read on the internet" speech. I was a little insulted- I may not be a vet but I am certainly not an idiot!
~Marie
Epi:
Murfy -forever free but forever missed <3
Toby -74 lbs, 8.5 yrs old, black lab mix
Meds:
258 mg Phb, .9 mg Thyrosyn and 300 mg Zonisamide BID. Also 575 mg NaBr daily.

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