call for help

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Chris Douglas
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:50 pm

Re: call for help

Post by Chris Douglas » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:47 pm

hi Chris,

yup ... me too ... sorry to hear you have the same issues with Cali ... molly's can be 7 in 24 hours ... or 4 in 20 minutes without waking up ... so I know the agony of wanting to help, concern about what's to come, and worry about 'how's this gonna end, on the good side or ... well, you know :cry: " ... not that I can afford an "ER" but the nearest one is over an hour and 15 minutes drive time away, at top speed, barring any traffic or other delay's ... or I can call the vet who is here twice a week and for a few hundred $$$ I can have her meet me at her office as a "emergency call-out" ... :roll: ... not sure what kinda time frame that would be ... :lol: :lol: :lol:

I can see where 1 episode with Cali can add up to quite a few hundred $$$ real fast ... :shock:

Hope Cali is doing better and best wishes ...

Chris and Molly
Chris & Molly
Brittany 27 lbs female DOB Mar.2008,
Pb 32.4 mg(1/2 grain) BID
regular Keppra 2/250mg BID
Valium tab's 5 mg orally/rectally as needed
Melatonin 5mg SID


1st seizure 8/20/12
last seizure 12/14/13

Rainbow Bridge 12/28/13

Chris Douglas
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:50 pm

Re: call for help

Post by Chris Douglas » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:51 pm

ok ... so Molly had a really bad day of seizure's after stretching her every 2 week pattern to a 28 day reprieve before it happened again ....

at 12 midnight she got her twice daily keppra ... then ...

at 5 am I had the valium pre-crushed and premixed with water ... used it rectally during the 1st seizure ... a whole valium and a crushed/mixed with water Keppra rectally during the 2nd seizure ... and watched her have 2 more seizures for a total of 4 in 20 minutes ....

and at 12 noon she got her twice daily keppra ... and then ...

at 2 pm we did it all over again ... except this time she had 7 seizures total ...

so it's 1 hour and 10 minutes till the midnight keppra ...

and I don't know if we're done yet or is there's more to come at 5 am again ...
Chris & Molly
Brittany 27 lbs female DOB Mar.2008,
Pb 32.4 mg(1/2 grain) BID
regular Keppra 2/250mg BID
Valium tab's 5 mg orally/rectally as needed
Melatonin 5mg SID


1st seizure 8/20/12
last seizure 12/14/13

Rainbow Bridge 12/28/13

Chris Douglas
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:50 pm

Re: call for help

Post by Chris Douglas » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:46 am

so this is strange ... any idea's what's going on now ... came in door from work ... dog is in cage/bed, laying there shaking, panting and drooling ... but she can hold her head up

as I get closer I can tell she can barely see

at this point I thought she musta just had a seizure so I give her 10 mg valium tablet rectally ... and try to get her to take a keppra but she won't take it ...

I gently lift her out of the cage and place on floor ... she stand's on her own and as I see her try to take steps I can't help but notice she's "jerk - ee" .. almost rhythmic ... like a short in the wiring ... with every step for the next half hour she goes on with the jerky steps ... in slow motion too ... low energy and jerkie ...

I get some butter peanut/honey in her ... then soft dog food and water ... I also used the o.c(ocular compression thing) every chance I get ... kinda think it helped too ...

but since she's never had this jerky-wiring-short kinda thing after a seizure I don't know if this some other kinda seizure thing going on or what?

and in 35 minutes or so it was like someone flipped a switch and everything was like it never happened ... she was back to trotting fine and acting like she was when I went to work ....

about another 5 to 10 later the valium and keppra musta kicked in ... you could see the instant it did cause she was tired and sleepy ...


any idea's about the walking in slow motion with jerky moves like a short circuit?

Chris and Molly
Chris & Molly
Brittany 27 lbs female DOB Mar.2008,
Pb 32.4 mg(1/2 grain) BID
regular Keppra 2/250mg BID
Valium tab's 5 mg orally/rectally as needed
Melatonin 5mg SID


1st seizure 8/20/12
last seizure 12/14/13

Rainbow Bridge 12/28/13

Kipsmom
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:59 pm

Re: call for help

Post by Kipsmom » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:32 pm

Yes, Chris - we saw Kip have the jerky slow-motion steps post-ictally - my daughter called it "high-steppin.' " I am so, so sorry that you are having this happen with Molly this weekend. :-( Sounds like she could use a valium drip in the ER, poor doggie!!

Our neuro said that our protocol for a seizure with our impossible-to-control dog would be, along with the valium shot which only lasts about 30 minutes, to give an extra full dose of meds right after a seizure (we would alternate between either Keppra or Zonasimide, and we used to do that same thing with phenobarb before he had the bad reaction to it.) And he said not to be afraid to give valium a couple of times if it's not being effective. Then the additional meds can then get into her system while the valium is working more immediately, if that makes sense. Obviously, it didn't work well for my refractory guy since he has passed on, but I think the neuro gave good advice for most dogs, so I am hoping maybe it will be beneficial for you to hear.

Can you give Molly her Keppra more often - like three times per day instead of twice per day?? I know with your work schedule, it may be rough, but the half-life is so short with Keppra that three times a day, even if it's not evenly spaced, might help.

So sorry - wish there was something more we could all do for you out here in cyberspace!!!
Ellen and Kip
Corgi/Lab/Shepherd mix - 50 lb
750 mg KBr QD
200 mg Zonisamide BID
1250 mg Levetiracetam (Keppra) TID
1st seizure 11/15/2012
In doggie heaven 8/20/13 :-(

Chris Douglas
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:50 pm

Re: call for help

Post by Chris Douglas » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:37 pm

thanks Ellen,

the "high steppin" is with head down and remind's me of a dance the kids used to do that was a "mechanical man" looking ... stop half thru the move then continue on stopping every little bit ...

I've been thinking about giving the 12 hour Keppra an extra dose somewhere in the middle of one of the 12 hours splits if you know what I mean ...

also been trying to figure out which (stand alone) meds to hit the vet with as a better idea than going straight to pheno. ... maybe Zonisamide 50 mg as an "add-on??? ... (and bringing up Clorazepate for the 2/3 days after a break thru???) ... how about Kbr as a stand alone? potassium or sodium? ... 20 - 30 per kg of weight?

have e-mailed for the "valium protocol" several times without a response back ... can anyone put it here for me to see and copy?
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-ang ... e_protocol

they need a spinning head Smiley ...
Last edited by Chris Douglas on Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:59 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Chris & Molly
Brittany 27 lbs female DOB Mar.2008,
Pb 32.4 mg(1/2 grain) BID
regular Keppra 2/250mg BID
Valium tab's 5 mg orally/rectally as needed
Melatonin 5mg SID


1st seizure 8/20/12
last seizure 12/14/13

Rainbow Bridge 12/28/13

Chris Douglas
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:50 pm

Re: call for help

Post by Chris Douglas » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:49 pm

must of missed it cause I can't find the dosing protocol for zonisamide and clorazepate ...
Chris & Molly
Brittany 27 lbs female DOB Mar.2008,
Pb 32.4 mg(1/2 grain) BID
regular Keppra 2/250mg BID
Valium tab's 5 mg orally/rectally as needed
Melatonin 5mg SID


1st seizure 8/20/12
last seizure 12/14/13

Rainbow Bridge 12/28/13

Kipsmom
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:59 pm

Re: call for help

Post by Kipsmom » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:58 pm

Hi Chris -

I know you asked about add-on drugs, but it looks like you also have room to move up with the Keppra. (Although I never thought Keppra did a darn thing for my dog, but certainly others have had success.) Zonisamide will start to help more quickly than KBr. KBr takes a very long time (4 months-ish) to get into a dog's system and be therapeutic. However, getting Molly started on KBr now would also be worth asking about.

Kip weighed twice what Molly does, and he took 750 mg of KBr daily. (He took 1.5 mL of 500 mg/mL KBr, compounded in liquid form by a specialty pharmacy, and we squirted it on his food in the morning.) Our vet said that KBr is also available in pill form, but we never tried that. I think the liquid form is good for a couple of reasons - easy to change the dose, and easy to squirt on food because the dog can get gastric upset if taken on an empty stomach.

Your initial guess on the Zonisamide looks about right to me at 50 mg twice daily.

The Clorazepate was one 7.5mg pill every 8 hours for three days after a seizure for our 50 lb dog. I will add that we only did the Clorazepate with Kip on two occasions, as - of course, as was typical with his luck - he didn't tolerate it well, and after initial drowsiness became hyper as hell. Neuro said that sometimes happens.

Hope the vet will be in town for you on Monday!!
Ellen and Kip
Corgi/Lab/Shepherd mix - 50 lb
750 mg KBr QD
200 mg Zonisamide BID
1250 mg Levetiracetam (Keppra) TID
1st seizure 11/15/2012
In doggie heaven 8/20/13 :-(

Gentle Jacob's mom
Posts: 925
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:52 am

Re: call for help

Post by Gentle Jacob's mom » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:05 pm

Hi Chris,
It's possible that you haven't received the Vallium Protocol because of the weekend. Hopefully you will get it tomorrow. I tried to retrieve my copy from an old folder on my computer but it wouldn't post it. The entire article is very long. I think it took eight emails, but the first will give you what you need.
We give Jake 15mgs of Clorazepate every eight hours for the first 48-72 hours after a seizure depending on how he is doing. The first dose as soon as he can take it. We put it in ice cream and he eats it.
If you aren't able to give Molly Keppra at least every eight hours you might want to look into Keppra xr. It's extended release and you only have to give it once a day.
I think if it's at all possible you need to take Molly to a vet that knows something about canine epilepsy. Even if it is an hour and a half away. That way they can sit down with you and go over everything. As much as we all know here, when it comes to dosing and figuring out which drug will work best for her you need to have a hands on vet. After the initial visit maybe they would agree to phone consults.
I wish I could be more help. I know how scary this is. It does sound like the high stepping is post ictal.

Keep us posted.
Lynne

Chris Douglas
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:50 pm

Re: call for help

Post by Chris Douglas » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:54 am

thanks Ellen and Lynne for all the super great info ...

I got the valium protocol today while I was at work ... numbered 1 thru 10 ... copied and pasted into laptop ... then printed off a copy of each ... think I'm gonna need more printer ink soon ... :lol:

had to ask my "x" to come by and give her an extra keppra mid-way between the 12 hour split today while I was at work ... no seizure today while at work to come home too ...

he's been good lately at stopping by to let dogs out and also to give extra feeding since I've changed the twice daily feeding to 3 times a day ...

started Molly on melatonin tonight to see if that will help with the nighttime seizures ...

Ellen: I think I read somewhere that the liquid kbr had flavors that dogs like too ... as well as being easier to adjust the dosage ... and there's a "loading dose" of 600 mg per kg for 4 - 5 days, then reducing the dose to a maintenance dosage ...

the vet is only here on Tues and Thurs ... but I can call her office in the other town on Mon and leave a message ... not holdning my breath on a call back ... and then on Tues I can stop by here in town when she's here ...

Anyone know what the dosing is on Zonisamide? ...

anyone try Felbamate?

Lynne: sorry if this is something I should already know but how much does Jake weigh?

I hope that adding an extra keppra in the middle of one of the 12 splits help ... the bottle just says "Levetiracetam Tablet 250 mg" ... next line says "Give 1 tablet orally 2 x daily indefinitel. Can be given with phenobarbitol" ... so I don't know what it would say if it was the Keppra XR ...

Here's the part that's a lil' hard to explain ... but I'l try only cause I would never want anyone to think that for what ever reason's I'm either uncaring enough, not smart enough, or just tooo slow to understand how important it is to get the best of care for my bud ...

I know that the vet we're seeing is in my opinion not experienced enough with epilepsy ...

I hate the fact that she isn't available everyday ...

and the worst thing of all is that I have such limited resources financially to do everything humanly possible to help my bud ...

and as Paul Harvey(dating myself) would say "is the rest of the story" ...

up till 2010 I was making $2,000.00 a month take-home ... while not a fortune it was adequate ... as a 2nd income in the household ... then I lost my job and the 1st income in the house decided he wanted to be single, these two things not connected just a sequence of events ... (the new "friend" 2 doors down was connected ... :lol: ... BTW, she moved outta state 2 months after I moved into a shack in town in 2011 :lol: :lol: :lol: )
so since then I've been scraping by working in a mini mart making a whopping $1,000.00 a month take-home, borrowing $$$ when possible from "x" to make the bills, and eating thanks to the state food stamp program at another whopping $42.00 a month EBT ...

ok ... at this point I can hear the "TMI ... too much information" ... but at least it's a little more understanding why I don't just do this or that ... when a twenty dollar bill is what a hundred used to be for me ... and it explains why I don't have refrigeration, or use the stove, or the hot water heater is turned off at the breakers ...

and I can't even begin to tell you how much all of you have helped not only with all the info but just know there are those of you out there who will help all you can even if it's just to say, "hi Chris and Molly, hope all is well" ... "thinking of you" ... "Keep us posted" ...

Thanks all ...

Chris and Molly
Chris & Molly
Brittany 27 lbs female DOB Mar.2008,
Pb 32.4 mg(1/2 grain) BID
regular Keppra 2/250mg BID
Valium tab's 5 mg orally/rectally as needed
Melatonin 5mg SID


1st seizure 8/20/12
last seizure 12/14/13

Rainbow Bridge 12/28/13

Gentle Jacob's mom
Posts: 925
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:52 am

Re: call for help

Post by Gentle Jacob's mom » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:22 am

Hi Chris,
I'm really sorry you've been through so much. Then having all of this to top it off. When Jake had his last surgery in January followed by the overdose in June our finances flew out the window. This disease can be very expensive. In January our vet told us about some online programs/organizations that help in situations like this. People donate money, and they give it to loving pet owners for financial support. She also told us about a couple of her clients who went on Craigslist, posted their situation and within a week got the financial help they needed. The donors either sent the money to the vet or maybe another third party. I'm sorry I don't remember the other option. It may have just been paid directly to the owner. I think with Craigslist they would want the vet's information (test results etc.) before donating money. The websites have their own process, but they're out there. Jake had a seizure this morning so I'm in all day with him. ( I grow organic veggies). I'll try to look this up for you. By the way, he weighs 55 lbs. If your ex can give Molly the third dose of Keppra I'm sure that will help. I've never heard of giving it twice a day, only every 8, or 6 hours if it's regular generic Keppra, but there are as many recommendations out there as there are vets.

I'll get back later today. I'm glad you got the Vallium Protocol information.

Lynne

Gentle Jacob's mom
Posts: 925
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:52 am

Re: call for help

Post by Gentle Jacob's mom » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:28 am

Hi Chris,
Here's one link that we were told about. humanesociety.org/animals/resources/tips/trouble_affording_pet.html

Lynne

cesullivan
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:32 pm

Re: call for help

Post by cesullivan » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:06 am

Sorry about all the seizures. Regular Keppra is given every 8 hours. The extended release Keppra every 12 hours. It is a little more often for dogs than humans as dogs process the pills quicker.

I get my potassium bromide in a pill form, tossed on top of Cali's food. KBroVet and I order online, need an RX from the vet. Costco by me also sells a liquid KBrovet, but it's easier for me and Cali with the pills.
Cali 4YO female Lab/Chow mix
Cluster Grand Mals
Last Seizure: June 10, 13
Pheno 64MG 2x/day
Kbrovet 1,650MG 1x/day

Foster Dog Jim 3ishYO Lab
Pheno 140MG 2x/day
KBrovet 1,000MG 2x/day
Keppra XR 500MG 2x/day
Zonisamide 200MG 2x/day

Chris Douglas
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:50 pm

Re: call for help

Post by Chris Douglas » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:29 pm

so sorry to hear that Jake had a seizure this morning ... was it a single seizure? ... how is he doing now? ...

I know the "ALL IN" feeling ... that was my last fri. when during the 7 seizures between 2 and 2:30 pm I had to pick Molly up while she was still seizing, place her gently in her cage/bed, close the door on her, and go to work ... maintain my composure for the boss and customers so no one would know what was going on in my world ... this is the stuff of life that would cost me my job ...

Thanks Lynne for the link ... checked it out and at 1st run thru it appears to be mostly about either low/no cost spray/neuter/pet food and how you can help/donate ... as well as idea's on how to raise more funds(have a yard sale, get another job/ask employer for a raise/advance on salary, take out a loan, or credit card ... etc.) or people to contact like the local dog pound and vet. schools ... etc ... but it's easy to miss something so I'll keep looking at the site ... :D ...

and I'm glad to have gotten the valium protocol ... felt like even if even if I can't do the things Molly needs (including the up to 3 shots liquid in first 24 hrs + the oral every 2 hours for up to 72 hours = omgawd costs ... :shock: ) that at least if I post it for others then in some small way I can maybe help other's and their buds ... :D

I like the craig's list idea and if I could set up something like that where donations are made to the vet with me remaining anonymous as perhaps a "client #" ... even if no one donate I would feel like I tried ...
Chris & Molly
Brittany 27 lbs female DOB Mar.2008,
Pb 32.4 mg(1/2 grain) BID
regular Keppra 2/250mg BID
Valium tab's 5 mg orally/rectally as needed
Melatonin 5mg SID


1st seizure 8/20/12
last seizure 12/14/13

Rainbow Bridge 12/28/13

Kipsmom
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:59 pm

Re: call for help

Post by Kipsmom » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:06 pm

Hi Chris,

At the risk of also going into TMI mode :D , we actually did have the financial resources to do whatever it took to make sure Kip received the medical treatment that he could. We spent $2500 for MRI and spinal tap, probably $1000-1500 more for ER stays, about $200 per month for meds...not to mention a $3000 pet safety fence installed around our pool to keep the poor little guy from falling in should he seize around the pool area when we weren't home, or just stumble into the pool during his post-ictal stupor or pre-ictal frenzy. And you know what? It didn't matter how much money we threw at him, the damn epilepsy took him anyway. So do not beat yourself up for not spending money you don't have. Because, at least in our case, no amount of money mattered. You are trying your damnedest to help Molly, and that's that. We did draw the line at an additional $300 per month for Lyrica, because the studies indicated perhaps a 50% reduction in seizures but almost all dogs in the studies had more unwanted side effects...(but the neuro's assistant told me after Kip's passing that they had just lost another refractory dog who WAS on Lyrica.) And I believe it was Lynne (I think) who reported that Lyrica wasn't helpful in her case either.

You just do the best you can, and love your little doggie, and try to keep your sanity. Because sanity was in short supply around our house at times, that's for sure! This disease is just so unpredictable. Hang in there. You have a lot of moral support out here, but it can feel so darned overwhelming at times like you're having.

Hugs!!
Ellen and Kip
Corgi/Lab/Shepherd mix - 50 lb
750 mg KBr QD
200 mg Zonisamide BID
1250 mg Levetiracetam (Keppra) TID
1st seizure 11/15/2012
In doggie heaven 8/20/13 :-(

Chris Douglas
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:50 pm

Re: call for help

Post by Chris Douglas » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:21 pm

Hi Chris,

thanks for the info ... I'm checking into dosing and cost to be ready for "the talk" with the vet ... trying to be prepared is madding ... :lol:
Chris & Molly
Brittany 27 lbs female DOB Mar.2008,
Pb 32.4 mg(1/2 grain) BID
regular Keppra 2/250mg BID
Valium tab's 5 mg orally/rectally as needed
Melatonin 5mg SID


1st seizure 8/20/12
last seizure 12/14/13

Rainbow Bridge 12/28/13

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