3 yr old Boxer with break through

Questions about the influence of diet and metabolism on seizures.

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devonsnana
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Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:41 am
Location: Illinois
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3 yr old Boxer with break through

Post by devonsnana » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:22 pm

I have a 3 1/2 yr old boxer. His seizures started at 4 months of age after he jumped down a flight of stairs. At this time he is on 16 ml 20mg/5ml in the morning 2 64.5 mg tablets of Pheno, 3.5 ml of Potassium Bromided at 1500 per mil. He started gaining sever weight after the introduction of the Potassium. He can not run, nor play because the least bit of activity causes him to seize. He will also seize with weather changes. Just prior to the seizures, he will get a mark on his back right at the upper shoulder area that looks like he had a strap around him and it left an impression. It is not there at any other time. His head then pulls to the left and he will start circleing to the left. Since he has been put on the Potassium he will now shake uncontrollable as if he was extremely cold also. He still breaks through at least 4 times a week and even though we are not having the grand mal's any more we have found that if we can get to him quickly and breath very hard into his snout, he pulls out immediately. Vet does not feel this is neurological but we do. Unfortunately at this time we can not afford a specialist to look at him. Has anyone run into this? We are at our wits end and love him dearly but I have to ask when quality of life out weights quantity. Our days are consistant of waking him to give him meds, waking him to eat, waking him to drink. If he should get excited then working through the seizures. Could there be another medication to try. My vet has not suggested any and at over $200 every six weeks we need to get this under control.

claires friend
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:49 pm
Location: California

Post by claires friend » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:45 pm

I am having a little trouble understanding what his meds are exactly from your post. That mark on his back is really weird. Did he get hurt in any way on the stairs? What tests have you done on him so far? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get a better idea of what is going on. Have you had a chiropractor check him out? It might be worth it. I have added Zonisamide along with the other 2 meds and had the best control so far. We still battle seizures almost everyday!
Susan Marie
Morgan -Foster Golden, now ours FOREVER !!
First seizure Aug 16, 2006 @9 months old ,very low thyroid
She has been with me since the end of July 07
150mg PB BID
.5 soloxine BID
400 Kbr BID

devonsnana
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:41 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

His Meds

Post by devonsnana » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:00 am

He gets 16 ml of 20mg per 5 ml 8 am. Then he gets 64.5 mg at 3 pm and 64.5mg at 10 pm fo Pheno. At 10 am and 8 pm he gets 700 mg of Potassium Bromide. Xrays show spinal deteriation in that area. They have run blood work only and the Xrays. In fact they run blood work every 6 weeks since he is on such high does of Pheno. He recently went through a major weight gain and is now 93 pounds of solid boxer. He hates food and they are suggesting me cooking all his meals since his breakthrough seem to correlate with his not eating as well as excitement. I have never heard of a chiroprator for dogs.

MK's mom
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Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:48 am
Location: Michigan

Post by MK's mom » Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:36 am

Are you saying he gets 16 mls of KBr??????????? If so, that's a lot!!! The way you're typing out his dosages is a little confusing to us. You're not saying if he's getting Pb or KBr in those dosages.

If you're paying over $200 for Pb and Kbr every 6 weeks, where are you buying it? Those two drugs are the cheapest ones you can buy. I pay $13.32 for 300, 64.8 mg of Pb and $32 for 250 mls of bromide.

Your boy's seizures sound odd and that mark on the back is baffling. Has your vet seen this mark or doesn't it happen when you have your boy at the vet? I think Claire's suggestion to try a chiropractor is pretty good or at least see an orthopedic man. Have you had any xrays done at all to see if there were any injuries to your boy after his fall down the stairs?

I have a friend whose dog started seizing a lot. The pup couldn't turn his head all the way to the right, so they put him on Pb for the seizures. Eventually whatever was causing him neck pain went away and he never had another seizure, but the vets' weren't brave enough to take him off of the Pb just in case. Injuries CAN cause seizures.

keep us posted, this is quite interesting

Vivian
Nathan
3.5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 7/26/2013
Last seizure 3/24/2014
__________________________________
MK
5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 1/25/06
Last seizure 9/4/2009

Aug 17, 2004- Sept. 22, 2009
May the shamrocks fall softly sweetpea

devonsnana
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:41 am
Location: Illinois
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Med explanation

Post by devonsnana » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:02 am

Pheno=8 am=1 dosage liquid 16 ml = strength 20mg/5ml = 64 mg pheno
3 pm=- 64.5 mg pill
10pm=1-64.5 mg pill

Potassium Bromide - 12 pm 1-700mg pill
8 pm 1-700 mg pill

I have xrays showing some injury to his spine. All seizures started after the injury. He does not turn his head to the right. To turn his head to the right it's like he has a stiff neck. Yes the Vet has seen the neck problems but not the strapping since this only happens immediately prior to a seizure. We can briskly massage the strapping and ward of the seizure at time. The cost was not for Meds but for the continual blood work they Vet does. I understand the need to monitor the levels but I feel this is excessive to do it ever 6 weeks. I have never heard of a chiropractor or orthopedic vet. I think that is where our answers may lie. He has only been disoriented once coming out of a seizure and that was after a cluster. Most of the time, he comes out, kiss who ever is closest and then runs outside, goes pee, comes in and eats something. I am just concerned with all these meds if there is a better way to handle this and also if injury can be the cause and might it be reversable. I will see if I can locate an Orthopedic Vet. That might explain why everytime he tries to play hard ( tug of war, wrestle with his brother) that he has a seizure. I will keep you posted.

MK's mom
Posts: 1708
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:48 am
Location: Michigan

Post by MK's mom » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:54 am

If you could tell us approximately where you live, maybe someone could help you locate a chiropractor or an ortho.
Nathan
3.5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 7/26/2013
Last seizure 3/24/2014
__________________________________
MK
5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 1/25/06
Last seizure 9/4/2009

Aug 17, 2004- Sept. 22, 2009
May the shamrocks fall softly sweetpea

Carolyn
Posts: 440
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:08 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Post by Carolyn » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:55 am

I have heard of chiropractic issues for dogs. Since your dog's seizures can be linked to the injury, I would definatily look into a holistic/chiropratic treatment. I think it is absurd for your vet to make you do blood tests so frequently. If your getting your meds from the vet your paying a substantial mark up (150% possibly). A friend of mine had a Corgy that fell off the bed, couldn't walk, he ended up going to a holistic vet for treatment because no one else could help. I don't recall all the details but the dog was helped. Diet changes are good ideas when your trying to figure out the cause of the seizures or to reduce them.
Carolyn
Kiya 11yr Shiloh Shepherd
PB 60mg am 90mg pm, 1teas kbr 1200mg, turmeric paste
1000mg milkthistle bid
First seizure 11/27/05
Last seizure 5/21/15

devonsnana
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:41 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Location

Post by devonsnana » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:28 am

I am located in the north eastern most area of Illinois. I have a friend that just gave me info for contacting Univ. of Wisconsin Veterinary Medical Teahing Hospital. I am going to contact them. They are also doing research in episepsy in canines at this time.

MK's mom
Posts: 1708
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:48 am
Location: Michigan

Post by MK's mom » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:55 am

Great! The vet school is probably your best bet.

Vivian
Nathan
3.5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 7/26/2013
Last seizure 3/24/2014
__________________________________
MK
5 yo Irish Setter boy
First seizure 1/25/06
Last seizure 9/4/2009

Aug 17, 2004- Sept. 22, 2009
May the shamrocks fall softly sweetpea

devonsnana
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:41 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Vet

Post by devonsnana » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:27 am

I will let all know how easy or hard it is to work with the Bet Medical Teaching Hospital. It will be a new adventure for sure. Jake had a small seizure today. He gets real upset if I have to leave him. Thanks for the support I have found here. I was beginning to think I was suffering alone.
Jake 3 yr Boxer with seizures from injury
PB = 177 mg daily
KB = 1400 mg daily
Jobba 10 yr Boxer with Cancer-Starting to lose weight now.

claires friend
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:49 pm
Location: California

Post by claires friend » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:01 pm

I don't think his meds are that high, considering his weight . Look at what I give Morgan, she only weighs 50 lbs. If his levels are staying current, I would think you could do blood work every three months. Dr. Dodds at Hemopet will run Pheno and Kbr for about $100 total. Can you take a video of the strapping? I really think he has a pinched nerve or something, that would easily explain the excitement caused seizures. Even if you figure out a physical reason for this and correct it, he will have to stay on seizure meds for a while. His body has learned to seize and it takes awhile ( I would think maybe a couple years even) for it to unlearn. But I think there is a lot of hope for you. Can I ask why you give both liquid and pill form?
Susan Marie
Morgan -Foster Golden, now ours FOREVER !!
First seizure Aug 16, 2006 @9 months old ,very low thyroid
She has been with me since the end of July 07
150mg PB BID
.5 soloxine BID
400 Kbr BID

devonsnana
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:41 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Why liquid and pill

Post by devonsnana » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:45 pm

First thing in the morning he will lock his jaw and won't take the pill. All other times he is okay with it but not first thing in the morning. He was on all liquid until two weeks ago when we switched to pills. Boxers have the capability of locking their jaws and nothing can open them unless they allow it. Also because most of his seizures are first in the morning, keeping the liquid allows for a quicker response time. We also have to give 3 ml bolsters if he seizes so keeping him on the one liquid dose is easier. This also enables other in the family to give a dose as he will take pills only from me but will take the liquid from any of the others. I will attempt to get at least a few pictures of when he is starting to strap. I don't know about the video but will try.They just started the KB in January so he is not to level yet. First tests showed extremly low levels which could mean he was throwing it up so we are going to the pills to see how they work. Jake is as picky as any spoiled child. His training has been minimal since fighting this monster but still working with him. Thank you
Jake 3 yr Boxer with seizures from injury
PB = 177 mg daily
KB = 1400 mg daily
Jobba 10 yr Boxer with Cancer-Starting to lose weight now.

claires friend
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:49 pm
Location: California

Post by claires friend » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:12 pm

I have my Kbr compounded into pills because they say it tastes just awful. At first they told me to just put it in her food, because a dog will eat anything. But then I started thinking why would I want to make of of the few enjoyable things (Eating) not good. We have never had a problem with her throwing up since I switched to the pills. It might not be so easy with your boy. Can you hide pills in food. Also have you ever tried using valium when he seizes, then you don't get the pheno levels messed up by adding more pheno. The pheno will also affect the Kbr levels, so I would think you would want to be as consistant as you can with both. I am wondering if a muscle relaxant might help. Especially since you are able to tell when a seizure is coming on. Is he having Grand mals or partials or both?
Susan Marie
Morgan -Foster Golden, now ours FOREVER !!
First seizure Aug 16, 2006 @9 months old ,very low thyroid
She has been with me since the end of July 07
150mg PB BID
.5 soloxine BID
400 Kbr BID

devonsnana
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:41 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Post by devonsnana » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:19 pm

He is havinig the petit mals right now. we have only had 3 grand mals. Hiding anything in food it out with him. Getting him to eat food is like pulling teeth. Doc said the amount we give him is not interferring with his levels since we have him very low. His Kbr is still not to level since we just started it. I am going to ask about a muscle relaxer. Will try to get pics when next one starts. Hopefully a long way off but I know it will only be a day or so.
Jake 3 yr Boxer with seizures from injury
PB = 177 mg daily
KB = 1400 mg daily
Jobba 10 yr Boxer with Cancer-Starting to lose weight now.

claires friend
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:49 pm
Location: California

Post by claires friend » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:40 pm

Has he been having seizures since the incident on the stairs?
Susan Marie
Morgan -Foster Golden, now ours FOREVER !!
First seizure Aug 16, 2006 @9 months old ,very low thyroid
She has been with me since the end of July 07
150mg PB BID
.5 soloxine BID
400 Kbr BID

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