Supplements for our epi pups

Questions about the influence of diet and metabolism on seizures.

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Orli
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:45 am
Location: Northern Negev, Israel

Supplements for our epi pups

Post by Orli » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:04 pm

I have been giving Pereg powdered Milkthistle to help her liver counter the effects of the Pb, buying the whole seeds and grinding them in a spice grinder, but was advised by someone somewhere that I should also give SAMe as well as the Milkthistle/

I have now obtained the SAMe tablets but cannot find the information regarding the dosage to give. Not my fault really but my computer was away being fixed and I was using a loan computer and unfortunately it did not save my Bookmarks correctly.

Pereg had another major Grand Mal seizure yesterday morning, five weeks to the day since her previous one, and that one was seven weeks and two days since the one before, when her dosage of Pb was then increased from 25mg bid to 50mg morning and 25mg evening.

I have been giving her Taurine in the hope that the post-ictal period would be lessened but I had over three hours sheer hell with her yesterday following the seizure. Not the usual blindly staggering about, banging to walls and not being sure of where she was - yesterday she was ravenously hungry and wanted food, food and more food - she was even trying to open my big freezer because she knows there are frozen raw chicken wings and gizzards in there for her.

This epilepsy is really not much fun.

Especially as she had crashed down in my back room, hitting my little mobility scooter and even knocking it over - and I really hurt myself trying to get to her. But she is OK now and I am just a bit more bruised than normal.

But I really do need to know about the dosage of SAMe that I should give her, so am please requesting any advice from anyone who might know.

Thank you.

Orli
The love I have for Pereg
And the love she has for me
Keep me going

Life without her would be easier
But then
It would be
So boring

libbysmum
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:34 pm

Re: Supplements for our epi pups

Post by libbysmum » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:47 am

I cant help you with the SAMe dosage, but just a thought have you tried feeding honey after a seizure?

Libby used to have really bad really long post-ictal symptoms. It started slowly but increased to 4hrs plus. I fed her a honey sandwich after a fit (yes, bread I know but at the time needs must and it's just one slice) it reduced her post ictal down to 5 minutes, and she really did used to be bad. I know not everything works the same for every dog, but worth a try if you haven't already.

Hope someone else can help with your dosage.

OrngTby
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:05 am
Location: Virginia

Re: Supplements for our epi pups

Post by OrngTby » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:38 am

I don't think I have seen anyone here recommend SAMe here, but you are correct - it is used for liver damage. Veterinary products that include SAMe are Denosyl (which is only SAMe) and Denamarin (which is a combination of SAMe and Milk Thistle). The dosage for SAMe is 10mg/lb/day. So a 40 pound dog will get 400 mg of SAMe in a 24 hour period. SAMe should be given on an empty stomach and no food should be fed for at least 1 hour post pill administration.

Below is a copied section SAMe from a lecture given on liver support and managing chronic liver failure from the Atlantic Coast Veterinary Conference in 2001 given by Todd R. Tams, DVM, Diplomate, ACVIM.

"SAMe (S-adenosyl-L-methionine)
This product is an antioxidant and antiinflammatory nutraceutical. Derived from the amino acid methionine and ATP, SAMe initiates three major biochemical pathways: transmethylation, transsulfuration, and aminopropylation. It has particular importance in hepatocytes that conduct or influence the bulk of intermediary metabolism. SAMe has modulating influence on inflammation, promotes cell replication and protein synthesis, has cytoprotective effects, and is important in promoting sulfation and methylation. It is a precursor of essential intracellular oxidants.

The liver, which can be likened to a large lymph node situated in the center of the body, undergoes great exposure to injurious products including free radicals, oxidants, and endotoxins. The liver has enormous cytoprotective capabilities, conjugation pathways, and antioxidants. Membrane damage by free radicals and oxidation is a basic mechanism of cell pathology in nearly all liver and biliary tree diseases. In the normal state, the liver is an important source of SAMe for itself and for the body. However, reduced hepatic mass, impaired function, or nutritional deficiencies may directly impair production of SAMe. The effects of this may include methionine intolerance and increased production and accumulation of oxidants derived from primary systemic or hepatobiliary disease, thereby leading to worsening liver damage.

SAMe deficiency appears to be an enabling factor in liver disease pathogenesis.

The accumulation of membranocytolytic bile acids perpetuates liver damage. Sulfation of membranocytolytic bile acids reduces their toxicity, which allows them to be eliminated. Taurine conjugation also reduces bile acid toxicity. In SAMe deficiency, both sulfation and taurine conjugation may become impaired, which enhances bile acid toxicity. Studies have shown that in vitro addition of SAMe to cell cultures reduced toxicity to hydrophobic bile salts. Clinical benefit has been demonstrated in humans with different forms of cholestasis. Recent work has also shown that SAMe provides an adjunctive therapeutic effect when used with ursodeoxycholic acid.

SAMe helps restore hepatocyte function by simultaneously stimulating cell repair, attenuating free radical production and accumulation, suppressing inflammation, and improving conjugation, membrane function, and toxin neutralization and elimination. SAMe may improve hepatocellular handling of organic ions (e.g., bile acids), attenuate alkaline phosphatase induction, and beneficially alter glutathione stores and metabolism in dogs given chronic high dose glucocorticoid therapy.

Oral administration on an empty stomach optimizes bioavailability. The recommended dose is 10 mg/lb/day. Conditions for which SAMe use should be considered include feline hepatic lipidosis, feline cholangitis and cholangiohepatitis, and in dogs with marked vacuolar hepatopathy from either glucocorticoid administration or idiopathic vacuolar hepatopathy, and in chronic active hepatitis. No significant side effects or changes in routine clinicopathologic parametersdevelop in healthy or ill humans. There are no known side effects in animals. Several products are available over the counter but have widely varying potency. One recommended product is Denosyl."

Here is what was said about milk thistle:

"Milk Thistle

Milk thistle (silymarin) is a bioflavonoid that has antioxidant properties. It is often used in management of liver disease in people and some benefit has been shown in refereed journal articles. A study in dogs fed hepatotoxic mushrooms showed a protective effect against clinical and pathologic changes when high doses of milk thistle were given at 5 and 12 hours post exposure. Veterinarians have used milk thistle for dogs with chronic liver disease and to ameliorate hepatic effects of anticonvulsants. Doses vary from 50-200 mg given every 12 to 24 hours. Many products are available over the counter, and potency varies."

Article provided by VIN - the Veterinary Information Network.
Melynda, LVT
Gauge
Possible 1st seizure: 12/24/2010 ?
Last known seizure: 8/27/2011
150 mg Zonisamide BID
375 mg Keppra QID

Orli
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:45 am
Location: Northern Negev, Israel

Re: Supplements for our epi pups

Post by Orli » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:45 am

Thank you for the advice about honey - I think I read that here a while back but things have been rather difficult lately and I forgot about it. I do have an unopened jar of honey so will try that. The only problem being that I rarely eat bread although I do keep some in the freezer which I can defrost quickly in the microwave.

Pereg's post-ictal behaviour has always lasted around three hours but until now it has just been pacing, crying, banging into walls and things, not this totally ravenous behaviour that she showed on Sunday. She has already gained weight since being on Pb because her brain tells her that she is hungry even when she is not, and it is extremely difficult not to give her more food when she is so demanding. We had been doing fairly well until this latest seizure but how can you possibly do anything with a post-ictal dog who is almost hysterically demanding food?

It was as if the words "no" and "all gone" had been totally wiped from her mind.
The love I have for Pereg
And the love she has for me
Keep me going

Life without her would be easier
But then
It would be
So boring

libbysmum
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:34 pm

Re: Supplements for our epi pups

Post by libbysmum » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:14 am

Libby is ALWAYS starving. All the food in the world is not enough for her :( I am very hard and strict here, I will not let her increase her weight as firstly its not good for her, and secondly it will affect what dosage she needs. Its taken 18 months to reach what I hope may be a more stable period, I dont what to complicate things further.
No has always meant no for her, but as you say they dont always accept that on the meds. When it does get to much I either distract her with a walk which works well or she can have very low cal treats. I give raw carrot/broccolli or in England its very easy to buy dried fish skins. The fish skins are great as they also clean teeth and the tiny fragments that get lost in the grass when shes eating it will keep her occupied long after the treats gone. I think other people give green beans or cabbage, but the above works for us.
This summer we found out she can no longer do family BBQs, the smells and the chance of someone dropping something are just more than she can take so we have had to remove her from these situations. Such a shame as she is part of the family.

Orli
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:45 am
Location: Northern Negev, Israel

Re: Supplements for our epi pups

Post by Orli » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:23 am

Thank you very much for that information - it was exactly what I needed to know!
OrngTby wrote:I don't think I have seen anyone here recommend SAMe here, but you are correct - it is used for liver damage. Veterinary products that include SAMe are Denosyl (which is only SAMe) and Denamarin (which is a combination of SAMe and Milk Thistle). The dosage for SAMe is 10mg/lb/day. So a 40 pound dog will get 400 mg of SAMe in a 24 hour period. SAMe should be given on an empty stomach and no food should be fed for at least 1 hour post pill administration.
The SAMe I have is

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-SAMe-Ner ... 11020?at=0

and I had reckoned that cutting them in half, ie 50mg, would be the correct amount for Pereg's weight, as she is probably around 19kg now, but now I see that it is far too low. She weighed 17kg on 10 April but has definitely gained. I will not be taking her back to the Vet until October [providing nothing drastic occurs before then] for a complete blood work-up after six months on medication, so she will be weighed then.

I get the Milk Thistle seeds also from iHerb and grind them in a spice grinder.

Incidentally I was not told about SAMe here, but on a general dog forum, and the person who advised it is a qualified Canine Nutritionist. Unfortunately I cannot find the particular thread in their search engine as I did not start the thread and I do not remember the thread title, and the Canine Nutritionist is currently on holiday until the end of the month.

As I say I had bookmarked the thread but was using a loan computer and it did not bookmark correctly. Now I have my own computer back I will bookmark this thread.

Thank you once again for your very helpful information.

With comfort

Orli
The love I have for Pereg
And the love she has for me
Keep me going

Life without her would be easier
But then
It would be
So boring

Orli
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:45 am
Location: Northern Negev, Israel

Re: Supplements for our epi pups

Post by Orli » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:24 am

[Apologies - duplicate post. I am having problems with this forum timing out so have no idea whether something has posted or not]
The love I have for Pereg
And the love she has for me
Keep me going

Life without her would be easier
But then
It would be
So boring

Orli
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:45 am
Location: Northern Negev, Israel

Re: Supplements for our epi pups

Post by Orli » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:33 pm

After the very welcome information by OrngTby and the following quote
OrngTby wrote:I don't think I have seen anyone here recommend SAMe here, but you are correct - it is used for liver damage. Veterinary products that include SAMe are Denosyl (which is only SAMe) and Denamarin (which is a combination of SAMe and Milk Thistle). The dosage for SAMe is 10mg/lb/day. So a 40 pound dog will get 400 mg of SAMe in a 24 hour period. SAMe should be given on an empty stomach and no food should be fed for at least 1 hour post pill administration.
I linked to the SAMe I bought and said that I had originally reckoned that cutting them in half, ie 50mg, would be the correct amount for Pereg's weight, as she is probably around 19kg now, and then said that I now saw that it is far too low.

However, checking both the bottle and the details on the iHerb website, the dosage given is 1 tablet 2 to 4 times daily, which is a maximum of 400mg - for a human adult.

Each tablet 100mg SAMe (S-Adenosyl-L-Methionine) (from 200 mg of S-Adenosyl-L-Methionone Disulfate Tosylate), so if the dose for a human adult is a maximum of 400mg, I do not quite understand why that should be the recommended amount for a 40lb dog. Would that not be far too much?
The love I have for Pereg
And the love she has for me
Keep me going

Life without her would be easier
But then
It would be
So boring

OrngTby
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:05 am
Location: Virginia

Re: Supplements for our epi pups

Post by OrngTby » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:09 am

In no way can you compare a human dose to a dog dose. As we constantly tell clients, cats are not super small dogs and dogs are not little humans.

Let me give you an example. In hypothyroidism, you use a very simular - if not the same - drug. In humans however, the dose is a tiny tiny amount. In dogs, it ranges due to weight any where between 0.1 mg twice a day and 1 mg twice a day. Now, we had a human doctor have his dog diagnosed with hypothyroidism and he was giving her half the human dose (which while I don't know off the top of my head, it was a very very small amount) and ignored the vet telling him the dog's actual dose. He then comes in when the hair loss is not improving, she still gaining weight, and her thyroid level is still no where near the proper level. Why? Because he wanted to think of his dog as a small human and dose her that way. Put on the correct amount of medication and she is doing fine.

Dogs process drugs differently - such as you can not give them the human dose of tylenol - they can not process it resulting in liver and kidney failure and, with high enough ingestion, death. You should never give it to them at all. And while yes, in very low doses (much lower than the human dose) asprin can be used in dogs, it is still not something that a vet would recommend due to the potential for many complications.

So you really can not compare what a person's recomended amount of anything is to your dog. They are canines - a completely different species of animal from humans. While I can not tell you the exact reason for SAMe, I can tell you that the 10 mg/lb/day is the dose we give dogs.
Melynda, LVT
Gauge
Possible 1st seizure: 12/24/2010 ?
Last known seizure: 8/27/2011
150 mg Zonisamide BID
375 mg Keppra QID

Orli
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:45 am
Location: Northern Negev, Israel

Re: Supplements for our epi pups

Post by Orli » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:48 am

Many thanks Melynda. I can get 200mg and 400mg tablets of SAMe. Would it be better to give Pereg 200mg BID or 400 once a day? I would appreciate your advice on that as soon as you are able to respond, so that I can put in another order.

Thank you again for all your help.

Orli
The love I have for Pereg
And the love she has for me
Keep me going

Life without her would be easier
But then
It would be
So boring

OrngTby
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:05 am
Location: Virginia

Re: Supplements for our epi pups

Post by OrngTby » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:09 pm

The majority of veterinarians (and breeders that use it on thier dogs) give the full dose of SAMe once a day. Since it should be given on an empty stomach, most clients will give the pill when they wake up and then wait at least 1 hour (2 hours if you can) before feeding thier dog breakfast. That way little treats and smaller meals for those more complex feeding schedules don't get in the way of the needed empty stomach. So I would just do the 400 mg once a day.

Good luck!
Melynda, LVT
Gauge
Possible 1st seizure: 12/24/2010 ?
Last known seizure: 8/27/2011
150 mg Zonisamide BID
375 mg Keppra QID

dexterboy
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 4:23 pm
Location: Dexter, Missouri

Re: Supplements for our epi pups

Post by dexterboy » Thu May 24, 2012 5:54 pm

Orli, have you tried giving your pet honey, as you were advised by someone? I wonder if it produced desirable effect? I hope it worked. I am considering buying animal flex for joint care: http://supplementlocker.com/animal-flex/ Not sure if that is what my dog really needs, but prevention is the best medicine?!

Speaking of doses, I completely agree with OrngTby. But sometimes a dose needs to be increased to control the seizures, so it all depends on the situation I guess.

Orli
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:45 am
Location: Northern Negev, Israel

Re: Supplements for our epi pups

Post by Orli » Fri May 25, 2012 11:04 pm

I have just had notification of a reply to this thread, a long time since I started it!

Things changed drastically following my last post - Pereg's Grand Mals getting more and more frequent, and she was clustering most times even though her Pb was slowly increased. Following a very bad time last September/October her Pb was changed to 50mg TID [7am 3pm and 11pm] and her seizures came under control. My Vet did not and does not want to add any other AEDs because of possible side effects. As it is she seems to tolerate the Pb TID and all her blood tests have come back as spot-on normal - her Pb levels being such that we can increase the dose of Pb if necesssary.

She has various vitamin and mineral supplements - as discussed with and agreed to by my Vet, but the one thing I do not do is give her honey following a seizure as blood tests have shown that blood sugar increases during a Grand Mal therefore giving more can cause an overload. It is better, at least for Pereg, to give her a frozen turkey neck or some frozen chicken wings, as that way she takes out her post-ictal frustration on them - and gets the protein boost she needs to counter the energy lost during the seizure.

Apart from the various vitamin and mineral supplements I give her [she has been fully raw fed for coming up to a year now], she has 400mg SAMe [in one dose first thing in the morning], plus Milk Thistle and Taurine, which help support her kidneys and her heart. I also give her probiotics, a "green" formula supplement, and Glucosamine & Chondroitin with MSM, and Sea Mussel extract to help protect her joints.

Pereg went from 17kg to 20.8kg in the five months following her diagnosis of Idiopathic Epilepsy and being put on Pb, even after I had changed her to raw, but following the change in medication from BID to TID I started weighing her food and gradually reducing it, and at her last weigh-in she was down to 19.3kg - she has lost a lot of the excess fat and is looking even slimmer now, so has probably lost a bit more. I would like her to lose another 1-1.5kg by the time she has her next full blood work-up in October.

She is happy, she is healthy, she just happens to be epileptic!
The love I have for Pereg
And the love she has for me
Keep me going

Life without her would be easier
But then
It would be
So boring

mariakatosvich
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:12 am

Re: Supplements for our epi pups

Post by mariakatosvich » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:05 am

Dogs process drugs differently - such as you can not give them the human dose of tylenol - they can not process it resulting in liver and kidney failure and, with high enough ingestion, death. You should never give it to them at all.

And while yes, in very low doses (much lower than the human dose) asprin can be used in dogs,

it is still not something that a vet would recommend due to the potential for many complications.

So you really can not compare what a person's recomended amount of anything is to your dog.

They are canines - a completely different species of animal from humans.

While I can not tell you the exact reason for SAMe, I can tell you that the 10 mg/lb/day is the dose we give dogs.
Name: Skyla
DOB: 26 Feb 2010
Breed: Maltese Shih
First Seizure: 23 Apr 2014
Last Seizure: 2 Jan 2016

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